The Andalucia Bird Society

Publications and Multimedia => Publications and Multimedia => Birding software & Internet => Topic started by: Merlot on February 06, 2011, 04:12:27 pm

Title: Bird names translations
Post by: Merlot on February 06, 2011, 04:12:27 pm
Hello,

After the trip to Jaén I thought it would be a nice idea to create a little program for Android smartphones with bird names in various languages, you can change the search language via the menu button. Included is a zipped .apk file for the phone and a zipped Excel spreadsheet.

After unzipping the Species translator, copy the file to the phone and install it with a File Manager  (like Astro or AppMonster)

Best regards,
Helen.

Ps. Ha, ha, both files are more than 128KB. When you are interested please send me a message.
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on February 06, 2011, 10:38:37 pm
Yes at the Jaén meeting it was said a booklet would be produced with a birdlist and translations, and I must admit I supported this proposal at the meeting. A couple of days later however when kindly being transported around by Bob, I asked him what order the list would be in. "The Correct Order" said Bob.

Now this is fine, IMHO, for experts like Bob who know what birds fall into which groups, but for beginners like us it will be almost useless. When we want to know the translations between English and Spanish (or even latin) we want them in alphabetical order.

Bob kindly sent me some lists but they were not complete, so I went to the SEO website and downloaded their list. This was for ALL Spain (not just Andalucia) which we prefer. Unfortunately however it was in .pdf format so I found a program that would extract the data into excel. I then omited the birds in the B and D lists. Next problem was that whereas in Spanish the adjectives follow the noun and hence alphabetical sort produces the order wanted, in English the noun follows so some further work was required.

Now I have excel lists that give the translations from English into Spanish and Latin; Spanish into English and Latin; and Latin into English and Spanish, each list being in aphabetical order of the first language (and of the nouns, in the English list).

I realise this will be of no interest to the experts but, as I say, it is what beginners like us need when trying to look up a translation in order to talk with, e.g. Spaniards next to us in a hide.

If any other members feel these lists might be of interest, they are welcome to them - see attachments. (I also have the source list that includes the other Spanish languages - but this is too big to attach.)

Barrie



Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Petrea on March 21, 2011, 09:41:44 am
Thank you very much Barrie. This is very useful.

 :D  :D

Saludos
Petrea
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on March 21, 2011, 03:30:49 pm
You are very welcome Petrea, and from the number of times they have been downloaded it looks as if others have found them of interest, and hopefully sometimes useful too!

I forgot to say that if anyone wants the full list with the other Spanish languages included, they are welcome but since it is too big to attach to a posting to the Forum, they will have to e-mail me.

Barrie
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Steve Fletcher on July 30, 2011, 10:23:25 pm
There is also a good online list of English to Spanish birds in taxanomic order,

http://www.robots.ox.ac.uk/~ian/Spain/Text/gbes.txt
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Peter on August 04, 2011, 12:39:44 pm
Thanks Steve, the list has been posted on the main website so members can download it as a 'one' complete list. Very useful I hope for all.

Peter
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Steve25 on August 04, 2011, 11:49:17 pm
Thanks Barrie for your very useful spreadsheets. Alphabetical order is definitely my preference too.

Steve Powell
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on August 05, 2011, 12:49:26 am
Regrettably I think this exposes one of the problems.
 
So often things are written and decided by experts for experts.

The new publication that is shortly to be put out highlights this.

While there has been much "contemplating of navels" about what  the cover picture should be, there has been absolutely no debate about the order of the entries i.e. taxonomic order or alphabetical order.

The experts know the taxonomic order so have assumed that is how it should be (despite the fact that the taxonomic order keeps changing as more is known, from for instance DNA, about the true relationships).

Non-experts such as myself who do not know the taxonomic order will not find that very useful as the only way we can look things up is alphabetically.

Regrettably ABS money is being spent on something that, for some members at least, is not as useful as it could be.

I just hope the content material will be made available as a spreadsheet so that I (amongst others) can re-order it in a way that is useful to me, and then print that out and replace the content pages with something that will meet my needs.

Barrie
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Steve Fletcher on August 05, 2011, 01:28:11 am
I am no expert by any means, but taxonomic order is followed by all good field guides, so why change a recognised and well documented order, and you will soon get the hang of finding anything. An alphabetical list would not be without its pitfalls, for example, would you put Corn Bunting, or Bunting,Corn ?

Excel to me is a real minefield, and i wouldnt know where to start, i dont even have Excel on my PC, probably the same as many others, each to their own i suppose, but in my opinion a well tried and tested, and universally accepted method of categorising birds is already in existence, so why change it ?

There is nothing whatsoever stoppng you from writing your own list in whatever order and format you seem fit.
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on August 05, 2011, 09:08:55 am
Because it is not meant to be a Field Guide. And in any case, field guides have an alphabetical index in the back.

It was said originally that it would be useful for translations between English and Spanish and vice versa.

If I am talking to a Spaniard and want to look up the English name of some Spanish bird he has told me about, since I do not know what it is I cannot possibly know where in a taxonomic order it might come. However in a Spanish alhabetical list I can find it immediately. (No problems of order in Spanish where the adjective follows the noun - and theEnglish  alphabetically ordered spreadsheets that I posted also follow that convention.)

The fact that you do not have Excel is irrelevant. You could get a free Excel reader if you wanted (but don't). Many of us do have Excel (or an Excel compatable program such as Open Office so COULD, if we are so motivated, produce pages in the order we want.

I think you have highlighted to need for two versions - taxonomic ordert, or aphabetic order, with the ability to choose which you receive when placing an order. (And incidentally, taxonomic order in which field guide? They are not all the same because it changes.)

Barrie
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Petrea on August 05, 2011, 10:46:37 am
Will the new publication be avaiable electronically to download?

If so, then it may be possible to import it into Excel. And of course the other way is possible: saving the content of the spreadsheet as, say, a text file.

another Excel fan,
Petrea
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Peter on August 05, 2011, 05:53:50 pm
There would also seem, to use a phrase previously mentioned, to be much contemplation of navels here, if you care to look around the main website you will easily find an alphabetical list for download and printing related to our birds here in Andalucia. Easy if you look. To save trouble I give you the link here:

http://www.andaluciabirdsociety.org/the-society-bird-list.html

I hope this might be of use now as it has been since the beginning of last year.

Peter
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Petrea on August 05, 2011, 06:51:37 pm
Thanks for the link Peter!

I'm sorry to admit that I do not find it easy to find things on the ABS website!  :(  Thus, I was looking in vain for the list you mentioned above in the answer to Steve.  :o

Is it just me who haven't got used to it?  :'(

Saludos
Petrea
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Peter on August 05, 2011, 07:02:28 pm
Lol Petrea  ;), I am sure like many things on the web, it is a case of getting used to it. ???

Actually it is the first item listed under 'resources' at the top lefthand side of the front page. Of course some would say it should be more prominent, put a button specifically for it etc., etc. But the truth is we cannot give every subject high prominence or a main menu button. Like every website, the more you use it, look around, then the easier it all becomes and better you get at finding specific items. If all else fails, I am never far away to give help if needed.

Peter
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Steve25 on August 05, 2011, 09:09:55 pm
Hallo Peter, I have found the ABS list very useful but Barrie's spreadsheets have the added benefit of three-way translations in alphabetical order from either English, Spanish, or scientific, whichever you need. Very useful when a Spanish birder is trying to tell you what he or she has seen.
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Peter on August 05, 2011, 10:21:34 pm
Hallo Peter, I have found the ABS list very useful but Barrie's spreadsheets have the added benefit of three-way translations in alphabetical order from either English, Spanish, or scientific, whichever you need. Very useful when a Spanish birder is trying to tell you what he or she has seen.

Couldn't agree more Steve, they are extremely useful and well thought out. I think its a great idea, for those wishing to have all 3 translations with them, to print them and keep them handy whilst out birding. Your difficulty comes, accepting and agreeing with the above, that to incorporate all 3 translations into a simple and portable checklist is not practical in terms of what we had in mind to produce. Incorporating the Spanish name into our checklist (booklet) does allow you to point out the birds you want to discuss with Spanish birders, also I work alongside a great many Spanish birders and you would be horrified to learn that the majority also know the current taxonomic order as well as the scientific names, puts several of us to shame really. You will also find the great majority of foreign birders i.e. Dutch and German etc. know taxonomic order and can converse through Latin names, given the taxonomic order to work with.

The alphabetical list already exists for birds here, through the ABS download, so it seems perfectly reasonable to produce a systematic list and checklist using conventional taxonomic order (a convention followed by ALL major bird organisations including the list Barrie used from SEO).

However, who knows, the idea of doing a 'book' containing all possible permutations of language could prove a real winner and something to consider in the future for some bright spark? Of course, as was pointed out, research is changing taxonomic orders, hence scientific names and families, and to add my view to this and further complicate matters, the English names are also changing at an alarming rate, so both alphabetical and taxonomic lists soon become outdated!

Peter
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Steve Fletcher on August 06, 2011, 12:54:30 pm
I have been shamed many times by foreign birders, who as you say, not only know the english and local names for birds, but also the latin names, taxonomic order, and names in almost every language you can think of.

I am lucky, living in a small village in the mountains, and being the only non-native for 100km, i have to converse in spanish all the time, so know all the spanish names for birds, but, they also have local names which can be very confusing. One example, a Serin, ( Verdecillo in spanish ), is usually referred to as a canario del campo, or country canary.
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on August 06, 2011, 03:53:27 pm
I should point out that they are not really MY lists - as Peter pointed out I simply derived them from an SEO list that is freely available.

So don't forget that, quite apart from the issue of order, there is a fundamental difference in that the spreadsheet I produced, being taken from the SEO list, is for the WHOLE of Spain and the data are quite old (2005). On the other hand the ABS list contains, I believe, just birds of Andalucia and will be more up to date.

Thus, for instance, the information on breeding status will differ. But as a non-resident of Andalucia I also go to Extremadura, the Picos and the Pyrenees etc., so a list that covers the whole of Spain suited my needs.

As I said some time ago, the basic spreadsheet has other Spanish languages too (Catalan, Basque and Galicican -  though not local county names!). But something I did not say was that it also has the Taxonomic Family Names and is actually ordered taxonomically. But as the preamble to the SEO List says, *which* taxonomic order? before it then goes on the give the source for the order it used (thus making it clear that there is not universal agreement and different publications may well differ.)

There are then columns of numbers to allow alphabetical sorting into other languages. (In the English version the alphabetical sorting is the form Noun-Adjective e.g. Swan, Mute,  though normal name e.g. Mute Swan, is also given.)

And if anyone were interested it has the B and D List birds as well as the A and C list ones.

Unfortunately, at 200k, it is bigger than I am allowed to post to the Forum. But if anyone wants it, just ask.

The lists I was able to post were simply derivatives of that list, reordered alphabetically, and without the B and D list birds. For brevity, the taxonomic family and breeding status etc. were also omitted.

Barrie
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Steve25 on August 07, 2011, 10:15:27 am
Peter I hope my appreciation of Barrie’s spreadsheets wasn’t seen as a criticism of the ABS checklist and apologise if it was. I look forward to receiving my copy and know it will soon become dog-eared with use. Also I quite enjoyed the debate about which bird should be on the front cover, all good fun and part of being involved.

The ultimate solution to my translation and order problems would be Merlot’s smart phone app. There is also one available for bird calls which I would like.

All I need now is a smart phone! ???
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Peter on August 07, 2011, 11:20:00 am
Steve I did not take your post as any sort of criticism, in fact the postings here have been very instructive and interesting. I also believe Barrie's efforts on the translations and making them available on here as downloads is highly commendable. On a personal level, the spreadsheets are appreciated as much for someone else doing something positive as for their practical value!

I hope I am as good a listener as I am at talking, so I understood a point that to some people the checklist in its present format (taxonomic order) might not be of value or use. After discussion we decided to ask members if they wished to receive their free copy or not, based I have to say purely on economic reasons i.e. postage and releasing unwanted copies for resale.

Peter
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on August 07, 2011, 06:30:16 pm
Hallo Peter, I have found the ABS list very useful but Barrie's spreadsheets have the added benefit of three-way translations in alphabetical order from either English, Spanish, or scientific, whichever you need. Very useful when a Spanish birder is trying to tell you what he or she has seen.
I think its a great idea, for those wishing to have all 3 translations with them, to print them and keep them handy whilst out birding. Your difficulty comes, accepting and agreeing with the above, that to incorporate all 3 translations into a simple and portable checklist is not practical in terms of what we had in mind to produce.

My own solution has been to print off and carry with me just the Spanish alphabetical list. This enables a Spaniard to find a bird (or even me if I can understand his Spanish) and this gives me the English name.

For translations INTO Spanish, I have simply gone through my Collins Field Guide and written in the Spanish. (It already has the scientific names.)

Barrie
Title: Re: Bird names translations
Post by: Barrie on January 23, 2012, 08:06:16 pm
The bird name translations lists are now superceded by the list produced by the ABS. I have therefore removed the files.

I am in the process of producing revised lists that are changed to correspond with the new information given in the ABS lists.

Barrie